THE SECOND DEATH

Regarding yesterday's post on Jesus' words to Martha in John 11 - 

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies. 26 And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

a friend commented:

"I’m curious to know how you understand the phrase “never die” in that passage, given that it is clear in the context that Jesus is not referring to physical death? In the context of the Gospel of John (5:28-29), Jesus also refers to a universal resurrection in which some experience a resurrection of life and others a resurrection of judgment. This passage is a clear allusion to Daniel 12:1-2, which speaks of some awaking to everlasting life and others to everlasting shame and contempt. How does one understand such passages from within a conditional immortality framework?"

Excellent! I need pushback and challenge from the outside in order to think this through thoroughly, so I appreciate his question.

Here is my response:

Physical death is the death of the body but it is not ultimate death - which will be the destruction of both body and soul. I believe this is what is referred to in Revelation as "the second death". The fact that some significant aspect of us survives the death of the body is acknowledged by all. So it is not surprising that Daniel and Jesus speak of a time when individuals have their souls and bodies reunited to face judgment. For some this is a temporary state because they then perish in the flames - the second death. For others, this is an everlasting state.

As far as "everlasting shame and contempt" being difficult to comprehend from a conditional immortality position? It strikes me as a great example of how our presuppositions color our reading of Scripture - and we see things "clearly" that are not necessarily there at all. "Shame" is something that is felt internally, so yes if one is to feel shame forever, then he must exist in some sense. But the Hebrew translated as "shame" could also be "reproach" - which comes from outside one. The second word, "contempt", clearly is coming from outside the one who is damned. If the phrase is translated as everlasting "reproach and contempt", well, one does not have to be in existence for outsiders to experience a feeling of reproach and contempt toward that person. In other words, I don't see any reason that Daniel and Jesus couldn't be saying that the damned will forever be remembered with nothing but reproach and contempt by those who are still living.

Am I totally off base here?

How does a proponent of Eternal Conscious Torment interpret the phrase "the second death"? (Revelation 2:11, 20:6, 20:14 and 21:8)